An Interview with Dana Scott | Vitamins, Minerals & Fish Oil for Dogs – Podcast 54
Hi everybody it’s me again Rowan Sanderson CNO chief nutritional Officer here at Bella and Duke, and I am with the legendary inspirational and thought leader. Dana, Scott from dogs naturally magazine who is very kindly taken the motivation and dynamism to set up this amazing conference, Dana. Thanks for me. Thanks for having me. Nice to meet you. Thanks. Thanks for having us. Now, we’ve got a whole list of questions for Dana. She’s a wealth of information. But I thought it might be nice just to let her introduce herself, because, frankly, unless you’ve been hiding under a bush, everybody knows about Dana. And I saw a really cool video this morning at the beginning of the conference, just explaining your mission? Would you like to take a few moments and just tell us about the mission and the thoughts and the love and compassion that’s going behind? Dogs naturally magazine? Yeah, I can probably sum that up pretty quickly. Basically, we, when we started out, we thought everybody’s in their little corners fighting their own little fights, and and we thought wouldn’t be great if we had one big community and one big stage to let other people you know, there’s, there’s all these amazing holistic vets that have a message that needs to get out there. There’s all these pet owners who are just dying to do better, but they don’t know how there’s all these ethical companies and manufacturers that that need more people to buy their stuff. And we thought, hey, wouldn’t it be cool if we were the glue that held this community together, and gave everybody a platform and just a place to go and feel welcome and safe, and in the end, just do better for their dogs? Awesome. I’m listening to that. And I think all of the beautiful analogy of 12 practitioners all standing around the elephant. And everybody’s kind of disagreeing about what it is one saying it’s got tail, the other Scott task, the other, it’s got a trunk. And it’s only when everybody actually comes together and is in a community that we get to share all of these pieces of the puzzle. And we all grow together, which is one of the key things I took out from this morning. Was you saying that, you know, We’re a non judgmental community, everybody makes the decisions for their own dogs, and you’re here to support them and to help educate them and that education should be free. Yeah, nobody came out of the womb, knowing these. It was a great deal. And, and I think the best learning is the hard lessons. Listen, if we did everything right, we wouldn’t be any better tomorrow than we are today. You have to do things wrong. And that’s what it’s all about is we might not be where we want to be today. And we’re going to make mistakes today. This is this is do better tomorrow than what we’re doing today. It’s what it’s all about. Yeah, I totally agree. Um, on that note, we were having a little discussion earlier. And this is a huge evolving learning process. There’s a lot of legislation at the moment, whether it’s Africa in the US whether it’s fed EF in Europe, particularly around vitamin D, and vitamin E. And I My gut feel is it just doesn’t feel relevant to roll. It’s much more focused at extruded foods, cables, ultra processed foods, which is the new term. What are your thoughts on that? Well, I have a few thoughts on that. And I’d like to if if you’ll indulge me for a second talk about how Africa came up with some of these requirements. So for example, manganese, I think a lot of people think that Africa just knows everything. When they said, Okay, how much manganese should be in the dog’s diet? What they did was they looked at at mother’s milk at dog milk, and they said, Well, here’s how much manganese is in dog milk. So we know that a whole bunch of that will be destroyed when it’s cooked, steamed and extruded. So How about we do that plus maybe 10%? More? Okay, let’s call that the minimum requirements for manganese, everyone good with that? Great. That’s like, that’s how scientific a lot of this is. Now, when it goes to things like linoleic acid. This is kind of gross. But what they do is they feed these dogs, a purified diet, which is just basically lard and some Hydra life protein. And they just, they feed, you know, and then they watch the dogs get kind of crippled and kind of diet a little bit, and then they go, Okay, these dogs have devastating skin issues and health issues. So let’s add enough linoleic acid to the diet until they look reasonably healthy. And then we’ll say, oh, okay, that’s the minimum amount of linoleic acid that should be in the diet. So that’s how science II or non science EF go requirements are to start with. Right? So To summarize, they actually either a running through the guests, Megatron, or be damaged dogs and decide that they need to do something better. Choose your poison, literally. Wow. I wasn’t aware. I I’m a little bit speechless. Yeah. And I know that you wanted to talk today about how the ethical requirements for vitamin E and vitamin D and manganese and some of the other vitamins are messed up. And that’s kind of why it’s a guesstimate and a lot of cases. So I have a little bit of a theory. And I think it’s perhaps more than the theory that the minimum requirements not only are in inaccurate, and I say this respectfully, so I know everybody’s trying to do a good job. But the toxin load experienced by the dog, which has been fed ultra processed food is entirely different to one which has been fed a raw natural diet with bioavailable available both between his minerals and proteins, which haven’t been highly realized, or ultra traded, or DNA jet, etc. Where where are you on that? Oh, I absolutely agree. And that’s Africa’s job is to ask for enough nutrients in processed foods because they’re baked out of them. Something that you know, on average, you’re going to lose at least five to 10% of those vitamins and minerals. And some like vitamin C are just completely obliterated. So when it comes to the vitamin D is interesting, because vitamin E is an antioxidant. So the one thing about kibble is that antioxidants kind of clear up clean up the damage created by things called free radicals. And free radicals are little electrons that are unstable. They run around your little molecules with just one atom that makes them unstable. And they grab an atom from their neighbor and another one and another one, and they just build up like blast in the body. So vitamin E is an antioxidant. And it helps clean up all of this damage that is caused by gimbal. Because the thing about kibble is there’s there’s there’s fat in cable, and they’re making this this this product sit on a shelf for weeks or months or years. And this this fat is constantly exposed to oxygen, and it breaks down and it starts to turn rancid or oxidized. So what they need to do with kibble is they have to add an anti oxidative to clean up the free radical orgy that’s happening inside the bag. So they need a lot of vitamin E to clean up that amount of damage When it comes to the raw diet. But because we A lot of us we feed a raw diet because we’re trying to avoid synthetic vitamins and minerals. We don’t want to see those adamant added vitamins and minerals. We want to really believe that there in the food that the food itself is inherently nutritious. The problem is, I don’t think there’s enough vitamin E that occurs in nature to meet ethical requirements because foods that are on the shelf today, cables etc. are not food dinner made in nature. So the vitamin E requirements are astronomical. And they’re just ridiculous to ask for that amount of vitamin E in the raw diet because it doesn’t sit on the shelf. It doesn’t oxidize to the same extent. It’s just not needed. That’s really interesting. I 100% agree with everything you’ve said that. And moreover, you inspired both Mark and I with this to totally read look at fish oils within the food. And I think that what we’ve seen in particularly in extruded foods, and particularly good value extruded foods, I say that in inverted commas, where for instance, an owner may open a bag, Those fats in there are going to be rancid and oxidize so quickly on exposure to the environment, especially if the captain those cable bins, That of course, they’re going to need more vitamin E, which is in itself a natural as you point out. Absolutely, Yeah. And I think a lot of people don’t realize is that they’ll have a two hour and they’ll go out and buy the 50 pound bag of food because it’s cheaper. You’ve got its poultry in that food and God help your dog fish oil, You’ve got two weeks tops to use that food up before it’s so oxidized is just not healthy for your dog. And with beef and ruminants. You’ve got about three weeks and so he’s got Wow. So from opening the bag, two weeks for poultry, three weeks for beef and ruminants. And in that respect, it would be much better just so that people can follow this and it’s summarized is that ideally, official would never be added to dry food. Yes, Fish Oil is a I don’t like giving fish oil in the best of circumstances because fats have carbon bonds in them like they when you get it that some fats are nothing but chains of carbon bonds. And sometimes you get to carbon bonds together. And these are very, very unstable and reactive. Some fats only have one or two of those double carbon bonds. And some like what’s in fish oil, EPA dhJ have a bunch of them. And the more double bonds that are in that fat, the more unstable it is, and the quicker it’ll oxidize. So yeah, fish oil is just all kinds of bad news when it comes to oxidation. Yeah. So anybody who’s actually wishing to do the best buy their pet, and supplement with fish oil, they need to be super assiduous about keeping that in a dark bottle. Cool, Away from oxygen. Because otherwise, I’ve often had people turn around to me, and this is one thing I find really frustrating. And they often say, well, it’s better than nothing. Well, not if it’s rowing your dog’s health further from the health goal. What If I if you’re actually putting the free radicals in rather than antioxidants? And yeah, and I think the reason people are eating fish oil are twofold. The first is they’re trying to get the trying to reduce inflammation in your dog. Well, guess what, if it’s ranted, it’s going to ramp up the inflammation in your dog. And The second reason is to fix holes in the diet. I mean, let’s face it, if we shouldn’t need fish oil at all, if we’re paying attention to the quality of diet that we’re assembling for our dogs, and and if we can afford it, which is sometimes a big if we can source and afford it, If we can feed our dogs grass fed animals that are raised outdoors in the sunshine eat what they’re supposed to eat, then we don’t need the fish oil. Fish Oil is just a band aid and it’s a bad band aid to fix a broken diet. Yeah, I mean, there’s a huge question of sustainability and where we are in the world because lots of animals can be left outside all year or they don’t get access to grass all year. So do you think that depending on where we are geographically there is kind of room on the broom, shall we say for fish oil occasionally, if we can guarantee that is contaminant free? Yeah, I, I, you have to keep in mind that is it is processed, it is heated it is processed fish oil. I have like do I use it? Yes, I had one winter about three years ago, or I don’t know what happened. The air was so dry and my dogs. They were so edgy. I gave them fish oil, and it helped. But I don’t slather all over their meals every single day and, and operate under the illusion that that’s helping them I think therapeutically fish oil can be a really good idea. But like you said, it’s got to be in glass. It can’t be in gel caps, because oxygen will go in those And just like kibble by small amounts, because every time you open the jar, it’ll oxidize. Yeah. Yeah. It’s really good that we’re all learning and evolving. And it’s only by sharing information like this that we get to accelerate that I’m A classic example of that was Karen’s work from Mega spore labs. He obviously did a podcast a few weeks ago explaining how lorich acid 47% of coconut oil, which everybody’s been touting as the panacea for all ills, not tall enough coconut oil to short term longevity, coconut oil, want to change your eye color, coconut oil. And they actually used it to induce leaky gut in their dogs. What do you think about that? And did you find that surprises much of the rest of the market? No was a surprise to me at all. Because when I was When Dr. make smart and I were designing our advanced nutrition course, of course, the microbiome is what we focused on. And and I think this is a possible look out for people feeding their dogs a ketogenic diet as well, because it’s inherently high diet, and here’s the thing you have, you’re not just feeding your dog, you’re feeding all the bacteria that live inside of him. And you have to pay attention to what you’re feeding them because you don’t want to feed the bad guys, because the bad guys are going to take over as immune system, they’re going to ramp up inflammation, and they’re going to cause problems, And there’s going to be inflammation in the gut. It’s just bad news. So high fat diets will actually preferentially feed and grow the populations of the pathogenic bacteria, the ones that you don’t want to see in your dog’s gut, the ones that poop out toxins that ramp up inflammation and activate your dog’s immune system and have those fats. Saturated fats were the worst polyunsaturated, you know, so for example, from poultry or more of a grass fed animal didn’t tend to have as much of an effect on the immune system sorry, on the microbiome and the immune system. Saturated fats had more of an effect. But when you broke down the foods that are highest and saturated fats, the one that produced the most toxic endo toxin from the bacteria was coconut oil. super interesting because it’s been used traditionally as an anti microbial and an antiviral Now, one thing I did read which was really interesting, and we’ve seen loads of research come out on it this year is Dr. Steven hundreds of epic work in the longevity paradox where he’s tied olive oil obviously very good on oxidized extra virgin olive oil, the lake acid producing and promoting Keystone bacteria like a commands immunity filler. Yeah, and that anchorman sia is definitely the new kid on the block like that is that is one command solar friendly bacteria that I think people need to start paying attention to. and researchers need to do a whole lot more work on. Yeah, I understand that there were a couple of university research programs looking into that further. And I, He noted that in Blue Zones around the world, Testing the biome of centenarians, All of them were touting super high levels of anchorman, sia, Interesting. Yeah. It’s great. I feel like the rate at which we’re learning is just accelerating, it’s becoming exponential. Yeah. And I get a little bit frustrated, because the human research is really just focusing on its role in diabetes and IBS. And I’m like, Come on, let’s get to the better stuff. Let’s get to the better stuff. Let’s, let’s see the role that the microbiome and these bacteria and I command to play in, in cancer and autoimmune disease, I just can’t wait to get to that point. And prevention is better than cure. So I think, to reassure people out there who are watching this, I think by feeding your dog a raw diet, you’re already picking up most of the marks the question is finding balance. And one of the things which I know is popular to both of our hearts, is ensuring standards across the industry. Yeah, I think that’s important. And I think, you know, we lead into this earlier is that it needs to be a little bit self policed by by us. Yeah, if, if Africa had a handle on all of these new foods, and all these formulations, like a raw diet, and all these novel proteins, and we wouldn’t be having all these DCM issues right now, These DC AMS are not a grain as grain free issue. These DCM issues are just because Africa can’t keep up with the definitions and the research that it’s needed for all of these novel ingredients. They haven’t even caught up to the raw diet, What makes you think they’re going to be ready for crickets? So interestingly, we were looking into the nutrient breakdown of crickets, and most of them are farmed indoors are utterly devoid of vitamin D, surprise, surprise, Yet, everybody keeps touting that they’re a super high source of vitamin D. Why? Because whenever the core in the wild, that’s when the tested It’s, it’s so true, you know, and we’re taking all these animals that are raised indoors, they’re not dogs cannot manufacture their own vitamin D. They don’t need to nature abhors waste. Why would a carnivore who eats other animals who can make their own vitamin D? Why would he need to make his own vitamin D? It’s silly. He doesn’t need to. So he’s incapable of doing that. So he relies on his food animals for that vitamin D. And What are we feeding our dogs dogs that are raised indoors and not exposed to sunshine? But I’ll tell you that’s for whole fish can play a role. First of all, I’m big fan of Oregon’s, especially eyeballs and brains. That’s a natural source of dhJ. If you can feed your dogs, eyeballs and brains, you’ll never have to reach for fish oil. But and you’ve got a whole prey A lot of people say, Well, I can’t feed my dog. Right? Really, because there’s fish. Yeah, of course, you have to be careful about the fish that you feed and, My goodness, Don’t go overboard. But if you’ve got a diet that’s devoid of devoid of vitamin D, adding a little bit of fish will really help to boost it. It’s funny, you mentioned that I thinking always doing the very best for my pet when we couldn’t get roar into Spain. Poor Kismet, my little Spanish water dog had some kind of heart issue. So I started adding in the adding in some local sardines every other every other day, while at night and day difference. Yeah. Sometimes It’s just that simple yet. Yeah, absolutely. We don’t need to treat things that don’t need to happen. Absolutely true. food is medicine. So Dana, we’ve got a bit of a confession Mark and I and I know this sounds slightly stalker. But we’ve we’ve both been doing your courses. So we feel like we know you’re already. In fact, we’re both just on your certification course. Thank you for putting that together. For anybody who’s watching this, I would urge you to do these courses, frankly. And I don’t feel obliged to say this having spent seven or eight years training in nutrition and covering functional medicine courses. It is so factually dense. It’s astonishing. Both Mark and I learned loads, we’ve already changed our approach to the food on what we’ve learned from Dana. So I would urge you to jump on board. Whereabouts could people find that they can go to Doug’s national magazine, com, there’s the dnn University. And we’ve actually taken all of our courses and I think there’s six of them now. And we’ve put them on a low monthly fee. So just that way, people can just take as many courses as they want. And we always try to keep things affordable, because our goal is to just as reach as many people as possible. You heard it here. Fabulous. Now, just to obviously, the quality at the summit of the speakers already, we’re learning things, What a great vibe there is going on. And Where can people find out more about the summit for next year for 2020? We’re actually waiting to 2021 because we’re going to move into the spring. But you can go to the raw natural dog summit. com check out the website. There’ll be recordings from this year if that’s your bag, and we hope to see everyone out for sure. Okay, fabulous. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate you a super busy, you’re on a mission as are we anything we can do to help you Please never never hesitate from the heart. Amazing. Thank you so much.